Flirting With Horary

I have always had a problem with fate. It just rubs me the wrong way, to think that things are predetermined in some way. I have come to learn that some things are, and yet they are malleable at the same time.

Recently, I have taken a particular interest in so-called "returns". A return is basically when a planet ends up in the same location as it was found during birth. Supposedly, this creates a powerful effect specific to the nature of the planet in question. For example, a friend of mine just had her Venus Return (which marks our attractions in life), and as that passed her boyfriend became her fiancé.

Coincidence, perhaps. But I have seen too many things of this nature to comfortably label it such any longer.

So now I am watching returns. The inner planets, like Mercury and Venus, happen more frequently. One or more times a year, usually. Mars happens a bit more often. The Solar Return happens every year at birthday time (though sometimes one to two days off, because the exact return is thrown off each year by the wobble of the planet).

Then of course, you have longer returns. Jupiter, and the oft-dreaded Saturn Return, and Uranus return (if you live that long). Due to the length of time it takes for Neptune and Pluto to circle the sun, is impossible - without a major breakthrough in the science of longevity - that either return would ever be seen in a person's lifetime.

It is the closest I have come to being interested in horary astrology, because this really does lie in the realm of prediction, and not psychology. I wonder if my interest is going to last.


Blogger VW said...

When you say a planet ends up in the same location... I was looking at this site: http://rednova.com/user_files/apps/space/astronomy/skyview_cafe/index.html (takes a while to load) and then at my Natal chart... While on the rednova I went to Orbits tab, changed the date, and put my mouse over Mars. My chart says it should be at Long 3,24 Lat 0,25... and the rednova says Long 93,22 Lat 0,25... Trying to figure out why there is 3 vs 93... Or is there a better place to look up positions of planets that would match my natal chart. I liked rednova because I could put in any date I liked. Your help is appreciated.

8:37 AM  
Blogger Lasciate said...

Heya VW,

Looking at astronomical data and trying to translate it to astrological data involves a headache full of math. It is better to get ahold of an astrological program.

I would recommend downloading a free one, such as astrolog v5.4, which can be found near the bottom of the page here (I used this one for years): http://www.zodiacal.com/chart.htm

Among other things, Astrolog allows you to save your charts on your hard drive instead of returning to a paper copy or a web page every time. Also, it has a number of tools, including the ability to spin forward and back through time, visualizing the positions as they move, and check "transit hits" each month, which will compare your chart to planetary alignments. It even - helpfully - will note where your returns are located (for example, if you looked at transit hits in the same month as your birthday, it would note your Solar Return on or about your birthday).

That would probably be the simplest method if you are looking for returns. If you need help using it, I'll tell you what I can.

8:52 AM  
Blogger VW said...

Ok, I need help. I have tried every way I can think and it is just strange. If I put in MY birth information it does NOT match what I get from Astro.com. If I put in my Hubby's or my friend D's it DOES match. I checked the timezones, the long/lats, times, daylightsavings... I give up. Why would it be different just for me? Also, I'm assuming this works backwards. Which is what I would really like to try. See if there was anything going on when I conceived or birthed my children... that type of thing.

6:47 AM  
Blogger Lasciate said...

Hrmm...that is odd...

Okay, usually when there is a fail to match, I check how close it is - are the Sun, Moon, and planets pretty much on target? Because if it is a matter of an hour (more on that in a second), then it is the Houses that are going to be off.

Basically, if the planets are way off, the date itself is wrong, probably unintentionally. More likely, only the Houses are off.

This happens for several reasons, but the most common is that astro.com computes for region/time zone automatically, whereas Astrolog presumes you know it correctly. One place this can cause issues is for people born in states or nations with dueling time zone or Daylight Saving Time differences. My big headache is that they switched the start and end of DST at least once, and not every state adopted it at the same time.

So, here's what I suggest to see if it fixes it: go forward or back by an hour either by changing the hour, time zone, or DST), and see if it does match up to Astro.com (which is a source I trust for lat./long./time zone expertise). If it does, then what you've probably been born in one of those zones where DST or time zones are quirky.

If not, let me know and I'll see what else I can think of.

12:23 PM  
Blogger VW said...

Bizarre... but it worked. I up'd it one hour and they now match. Ok, back to playing with it and seeing if I can see the "returns" around my marriage and kids. I am making a HUGH assumption that I should just look at the long/lat for the planet... like if Mercury is 9:45 and 1:22... I look to see when it is there again. That the declination does not come into play as much here. Thanks for the help.

12:50 PM  
Blogger VW said...

There is a lot of information on the web about this. Also some books listed. Do you have one that you would recommend? I hate to ask you stupid questions - like What 'year' does it effect? From birthdate to birthdate or the year of the birthdate. I can't find that on the web. Mainly because I see this: Ven 29Gem38 4.45 birth year
Ven 28Gem19 -4.20 19xx

Meaning the natal Venus is therefore conjunct the Solar Return Ascendant but don't know if that applies to 1988 or from my birthday on. (interestingly enough, this is near my first marriage and I find it humorous that I haven't found anything near my second marriage.)

2:37 PM  
Blogger Lasciate said...

I am not sure I understand your question. If you're talking Solar Returns, it affects every year. Inner planets closer to the sun than Earth occur every year, sometimes more than once. Outer planets occur every so often, more frequently with close ones like Mars, but by Saturn it is every 29 years or so.

Venus at 29Gem38, means Venus in Gemini, 29 degrees, 38 minutes. Sometime this year, Venus will roll past that spot again. If you do the chart for "Now" and hit the plus or minus sign you can watch for when it rolls past that sign and degree.

To see it using the Transits function, start with the birth chart of the person in question. Then go to Transits, and go for Transit to Natal Hits. Set the month and year you wish to look at (Astrolog does Transit-Natal hits in monthly chunks). Then hit Okay. If the Venus Return (or whatever) will come in that month, you'll see it.

Hopefully this is somewhat helpful.

2:59 PM  
Blogger VW said...

Now I am totally embarrassed. Yes what you say makes everything come into place. I sometimes wonder how the twisted ways I think of things come about. Just ignore what I said... you made it all clear.

4:07 PM  
Blogger Lasciate said...

You should not be so harsh towards yourself. I mean, it's not like I gave detailed instructions to begin with, which is something of an oversight on my part.

7:09 AM  
Blogger LisaPal said...

OK- I've been thinking about this because something struck me when I read it. Starting on May 1st, a series of strange things occurred. A man with whom I'd once been very much in love (it was mutual, but I was separated and he was married and was sure he'd never be feel right about leaving his wife- then he moved to another state on job promotion) surprised me by showing up in the spot he knew he'd find me at Jazz Fest. He told me he had left his wife and was interviewing for a job here. I hadn't seen him more than a couple of times in the last 6 or 7 years. Then, less than a week later, a mutual friend of ours (all are also friends with Rachel's dad), who I'd seen about as often over the same 6or 7 years, called and asked me to do some work for him. At the same time, there was a major development in a situation related to Rachel and her dad- too complicated to explain, but lets just say it was like a bomb with a fuse that had been burning for about 8 years. All these people and events are related in that we all know each other and are connected either through work, personal relationships, or both, with the locus of activity that connected us all at its strongest in 1995. (What a year that was!)

All this started around May 1st and after reading this, I thought there might be a return of some sort involved. If understand correctly, I could look at an ephemeris to see if there were any signs in the same configuration as my natal chart on or around May 1st. Well, I couldn't find any correlation. My solar return is in the early morning hours of my birthday, and this checks out with the ephemeris, so I think I got this right.

But I played around with the charts on Astro.com some more and did a progressed chart, using the start date of May 1, 2005. I think I sort of get what this is about, and given that, I'd expect the progressed outer planets to be only a few degrees off the natal positions. (They were.) But, given the faster progress of the inner planets, there would be greater variability involved with them.

In any case, in the progressed chart for May 1st, Venus was occupying Scorpio (9th house), a few degrees off of the natal position, and Mercury was in Libra (8th house), also a few degrees off.

I'm not sure if this means anything, but I figured it was worth examining. I know this isn't necessarily your thing, but I was wondering if you had any thoughts, because this sudden gush of people and events that had been underground for the last 6-8 years was quite striking.

2:12 AM  
Blogger LisaPal said...

Scratch what I said because Mercury and Venus stay in the same spot no matter what date I use, though the sun and moon move. I though I was on to something, but apparently not.

I have been looking at transits and I guess you can't glean much from them if you don't understand the aspects. Head-spinning stuff at this hour...

Sorry for taking up so much space and time with that last comment. Perhaps I shouldn't have been so quick to start writing...

3:02 AM  
Blogger Lasciate said...

Merc and Venus are both inside the spot between Earth and the Sun. That means for any given natal chart (which, remember, is a snapshot of your birthplace/time with the universe around you) both planets will be "around" the sun from an earth-centric perspective. Or, to put it another way, if you could look across the universe towards the sun, you're going to see Mercury and Venus somewhere in the neighborhood. They are all three going to be against the same backdrop of one to three signs. This is why Mercury and Venus Returns tend to occur in the months near one's birthday (I know I didn't mention that before).

Because they are faster, though, you get this "circling fly" effect with the planets (Mercury in particular) zipping around the sun...they go in and out of the specific signs of interest as the sun rolls towards your birthday. They may zip into the appropriate spot for a Return before the sun gets there, and even back out. Even after the sun passes, they may hit it again at times on the back end.

Anyhow, the principles of operation for horary and natal are much different. It is like learning a new set of laws to apply. Also, a Return is only one of many possiblities for reasons something happened when. Particular planetary alignments compared and/or contrasted with one's natal chart are more common identifiers. Also, a progressed chart "progresses in maturation" from the date you set. Which means if you set a date from a month ago, the event is only a month old. Progressed charts are usually used from natal charts, to see what stage of natural maturation a person has come to at a specific time.

I'm not sure that touched on what you were curious about, but that's all I have for the moment. My computer has been acting really weird.

But, oh yeah, Lisa, come on...it's virtual space. Be as verbose as you like.

9:11 AM  

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